Osler's Razor

Would you relentlessly pester a fat person to stop eating fast food and lose weight? Most people wouldn't. And yet being obese is at least as unhealthy and dangerous as smoking. So why is it ok to openly confront a smoker about their unhealthy habit, yet most wouldn't do the same for the obese people in their lives? I'm not saying people shouldn't care about others, but I've never quite understood why most people have no problem being against smoking but won't say anything to the obese. Just a thought.
 

Justin, I think the problem with smoking is that it's usually not a private thing.

One thing I loved about Austin was that no matter what restaurant I was at, I knew I was getting a smoke-free dining experience. I have nothing against smokers (I smoke 4-5 cigars a month, probably), but I don't like the smell and feel of smoke in the air as I'm trying to eat.

Other self-destructive habits in which I engage (drinking, eating terribly tasty but bad food like the tacos as Bigos, writing science fiction stories) are mostly private (unless I combine them with driving or something). People feel more justified about acting this way to smokers because it's more public.

That said, I try to be conscientious of people, especially those with allergies. I always smoke outside, never in my car, and only in a well-ventilated, preferably windy area. I clean up after myself and at least wash my hands, if not my clothes and hair, immediately afterward.
 

I actually agree with you on the issue of smoking being a public vs. private issue, and I also enjoy smoke-free dining establishments. I've just always found it fascinating that someone can chastise someone else for the unhealthy of smoking in between bites of a Big Mac (which I have actually seen happen). I generally don't smoke and I don't generally eat fast food, I just hate that one is acceptable to openly hate and the other is taboo.
 

From the perspective of someone who is allergic to cigarette smoke, I agree that smoking is definitely more of a public issue - someone sitting across from me smoking is more annoying than someone across from me with Big Mac dribbling down their chin. He/she is interfering with my health directly with one, and not with the other.
And I'll raise the question of whether it's easier to stop smoking than it is to stop eating - easier to avoid the cigarettes than the food all around us - so we expect more from people trying to stop smoking?
To end, Justin, it's amazing how something starts to lose its "taboo" status when someone in your family has a triple bypass and dies on the table. I have a few friends who actually like to eat with me because they know I know the calories in the items on the menu and I'll suggest healthier places or options to eat. (Not that I don't have other bad habits. :) )
 

There are two issues we're conflating here. First, should you confront someone about their smoking (either someone you love, or people you just know). Second, should smoking in public be allowed. They are separate for the obvious reason that many smokers now "go outside" or smoke in private or only with other smokers.

On the second, I agree with most here. I think the state and city bans on public smoking are great for all the reasons stated here.

On the first, I have changed. When a friend from Nepal framed it as a cultural issue -- US culture has become drastically anti-smoking in the last 20-30 years (which I'm fine with, as a non-smoker), even as smoking remains a big part of most of the world's cultures. Asking someone from another culture to stop smoking would be disrespectful to their culture, bordering on offensive (assuming they are "respectful," i.e. don't smoke right in front of you). My friend framed it, probably a bit polemically, as "neocolonialist."

So if we accept that there is not one culture in the US, but many interwoven subcultures (e pluribus unum), then let people smoke to their hearts and lungs content as long as they are consenting adults. Everyone these days knows the consequences; let them decide.

If it is a loved one, I think it's a pretty private decision, between you and the other person and dependent on your relationship with them. I might encourage them softly, but it wouldn't be a make-or-break issue. As many have suggested, drinking, eating unhealthy foods, using pesticides and herbicides and chemical household cleaners (thank you Rachel Carson), using cell phones, writing science fiction, etc., are all bad for us, but we do it. Life goes on.
 

I smoke. It is disgusting. But it is also awesome. The after-dinner cigarette...awesome. The first-thing-in-the-morning cigarette...awesome. The driving-cigarette...awesome. I'm fully cognizant that it is dumb and fully aware that I'm making a poor choice.

That being said, it is my choice. Which is why I'm against the public smoking bans. These policies are perfect examples of nanny statism. If you don't like cigarette smoke then don't go to bars and restaurants where they allow smoking. Man, how simple is that. People have the freedom to choose to associate with who the want where they want. Since when was it your right to have access to a smoke free environment in every bar and restaurant in a city?

At the same time, when my friends tell me I should quit smoking I never get offended. I think it means they care about me, which is always a nice thing to hear. Smoking is awful. And gross. And deadly. So, I understand why people who care about you should want you to quit.

And Septimus, I assume you wouldn't support a national smoking ban in the US because of the way it might offend people in places like North and South Carolina, where smoking is still a deeply ingrained cultural behavior, right?
 

Osler, you are famous in Austin now since you are the lead story on www.Statesman.com and there is an article about you in the "life" section: http://www.statesman.com/life/content/life/stories/books/2009/06/16/0616osler.html
 

Justin T.--

There are two major flaws in your metaphor.

1. An obese person eating only fast food needs food. They just need different kinds of food than fast food. I believe that changing your diet is a much different affair than giving up smoking.

2. Being fat doesn't cause others to be fat. However, second-hand smoke is extremely dangerous, and poises a threat to the public at large, whereas somebody eating only at McDonald's would only harm the public by sitting on them or something.

I rest my case.
 

With regard to SMOKING in North Carolina. The state legislature is in the process of implementing smoking restrictions in restaurants and bars. So much for being sacred ground.

In Florida we banned smoking in restaurants but it was allowed in bars that served food if the bar tabs exceeded the food tabs. Those establishments tend to have extraordinary ventilation systems (a FL requirement at one point) and are still enjoyable to stop in for a beer and a bit to eat. It is a personal choice to patronize a business where smoking is still permitted.

As a non-smoker I prefer to not be around smoking but I have a few friends who do smoke and at this point in their lives they aren't going to stop. Fortunately they smoke in the great outdoors so I can be up-wind from the smoke.

My parents smoked when we were little but quit. My dad continued smoking cigars (he doesn't anymore) and I love the aroma of a good cigar - I can hang out with Lane. In the early 80's the cigarette manufacturers handed out FREE mini packs in DT Detroit. My dad started smoking again - purely stress related. He was not addicted and when pressed by his loved ones he quit - cold turkey.

I feel it is perfectly acceptable to to be upfront with immediate family members about smoking, drinking and eating habits. I have seen young children be much more effective with parents that smoke than their grown children. There is a bit more guilt when your 5 or 6 yr old is learning about smoking in school health programs and then calls you out on it.
 

good point Micah
 

RRL -- You got it. I wouldn't support a national smoking ban at all. I'm happy to make distinctions between a full range of areas that can be federal, state, and locally legislated, and smoking is certainly a local, or possibly state (though I'd probably go with local...would have think about it).
 

Virginia just banned smoking in state prisons. While I'm all for not smoking, this has trouble written all over it.
 

Micah-

I don't disagree with the points you've made, but my understanding of the question is whether it's appropriate to confront someone about their unhealthy habits. Although I won't debate whether or not eating unhealthy foods is at least as addictive as smoking cigarettes, my point still remains that most people will call someone out on smoking but won't over being fat, which always puzzles me. I'm not really disagreeing with anything anyone says. And for once, I actually agree with RRL that smoking bans, which are nice for nonsmokers like myself, place a damper on the freedom of business owners to choose how to run their business.
 

I love smoking. I don't care if it is harmful. I don't smoke around people that hate it; however, that just means I'll go like ten feet away. Guinn has always been on my case about smoking, I just don't care. If someone doesn't like smoking, they just don't have to be around me. If a person wants a ride and hates the smell of smoke, they are just SOL. I don't smoke in my apartment because of my own choice, I have no concern about my guests because it isn't their sanctuary.
I personally feel like it is my habit and no one should interfere with it. If you're allergic, I'm sorry; however, there is a lot of the world left so you don't have to stand by me, and I'm not intentionally getting smoke in your face.
What it ultimately comes down to is that you are just making yourself a bother. I know people don't like my smoking; however, pestering me to quit will just make it worse because any break from smoking will just be temporary because it is something I actually want to do. You may think you won your little battle but you didn't because it wasn't MY choice, you just became too damn annoying.
I don't mind the bans on smoking in bars, I just hate people trying to involve themselves in an issue that doesn't involve them on the premise that they are my friend. It is a habit that makes me happy, my friends should want me to be happy. If it got out that I was doing coke all the time, I'd be just as annoyed with friends interfering. There are some things one prefers more than friends. Anything that is addictive is usually priority over friendship.
Brennan
 

Well said, Micah. As for the love child of Rush Limbaugh and Anne Colter (RRL), of course you smoke! It's your duty. Smoke until your lungs turn to pale ash.
However, you smoke anywhere around me or someone I love, you're inflicting your vice on others. Despite what the folks in North Carolina say, the research on 2nd hand smoke is devastating.
Now, go have your awesome cigar with Rush somewhere far, far away from other people. We'll all be happy!
Fred
 

Actually, for once RRL and I pretty much agree on something . . . although I would argue for at least some restrictions on smoking in public places (when most of a country smokes and they allow smoking in restaurants, it limits the non-smokers' freedom to choose where they can go when virtually every place is smoke-filled, as it was when I lived in Zurich. It would've been nice if they'd had a smoking and a non-smoking section.)

But to the issue of how much you pester a loved one to stop a dangerous habit: it's a very personal, very individual, case-by-case thing, in my mind. I have a very close relative who had been in AA, stopped drinking completely and stopped taking drugs, but ended up a smoker. To me, this is the irony of those 12-step programs: they seem to replace one harmful activity with another; smoking seems to be allowed and almost condoned as a way to transfer people's attention away from drinking or doing drugs (at least those were my perceptions as a family member). (Often in mental-health group sessions smoking is tolerated, too, again as a lesser-of-two-evils I suppose.)

It was hard to say anything to her about smoking because she was already doing a herculean job by quitting drinking absolutely.

Like so many other things in life, it depends--it seems to me. I think expressing concern is always fine for a family member to do; how much effort you devote to getting the other person to stop is another matter, depending on how much it's hurting the person and hurting others.
 

Fred - I don't smoke cigars.

I think you're confusing me with Bill Clinton and his affinity for cigars, though I'm not sure he smoked them either.

I smoke cigarettes, which are good for you. At least that is my belief since I refuse to read any magazine advertisements made after 1970. Good and good for you.
 

RRL-

I think people are just jealous because they know that cigarettes are where flavor lives, and the cool choice for a hot night.
 

I smoked for at least ten years. I am with RRL: it was awesome. I still miss smoking (every day). Science tells us that some folks are born to smoke and some aren't. I was definitely genetically predisposed to enjoy smoking.

As a smoker, I used to say that if I had three wishes, they would be that cigarettes were good for your health, inexpensive, and made you smell good.

But, alas, they were none of those things. The reason I finally quit? I am cheap. I quit when cigarettes went up to $2.00 per pack. They struck me as a luxury that I could no longer justify.

Maybe if I ever get rich, I will start smoking again. I wonder if a pack a day habit would make me any less healthy than the fifty pounds I have gained in the years since I quit puffing?

As to the question, nobody likes a nag. Smokers tend to see anti-smoking zealots as hypocritical and sanctimonious bullies. "Society lets me beat up on smokers--and boy do I enjoy it."

I say if you love someone who is a smoker, you may express your concern--but don't beat a dead horse (no Marlboro Man puns intended).

On the other hand, in the big scheme of things, if smoking were more socially acceptable--and cheaper--I think I would very likely still be smoking. The societal pressure played a role in my personal deliberations, I think.

So, perhaps, being an insufferable anti-smoking Nazi really is indirectly making the world a better place.
 

Well, I had no idea my little note would awake such passion. Tip of the hat to Osler for putting this out for discussion.

I confront the people I love about smoking because I watched my grandmother die of lung cancer in 1988. She had quit, but she went back, got cancer and died. Smoking killed her, plain and simple.


I don't smoke, have never smoked and won't start anytime soon. I do not hassle others about smoking if they are not directly poisoning me with their toxic cloud. Nevertheless, I am totally against smoking in public because it is toxic. I refuse to breath other people's smoke.

About fatness and smoking: Micah is correct--the metaphor is flawed. On the other hand, eating the wrong things is just as deadly as smoking, maybe more so. I don't hassle fat people because nothing they do contaminates my breathing. No,they shouldn't be eating that crap and they should give up Big Macs, and maybe they will.

I do not believe that their is a "right" to smoke. Oil tankers that sink and dump their toxic cargo into the water have no "right" to do that. The nicotine addiction is strong and will make people write all kinds of irrational stuff so that they can rationalize poisoning themselves. Cigarettes don't kill people, the smoke coming out the filter does. Makes no sense. If your hobby is giving yourself lung cancer, check out the hospice service at your local hospital and talk with the people there, I'm sure they have some opinions about smoking.

I love my family and friends, and it breaks my heart to see them smoke. I hassle my students who smoke because they might just stop and that makes it worth it. When they don't, I just let them know that I still care about them, and that their smoking won't change that.

I have bad habits myself, but I try to make sure that my vices don't affect others. I gave up caffeine two years ago, I really try to moderate on the beverages, and I don't eat Big Macs. Moderation can go a long way in making sure bad habits don't kill you.

Am I relentless? No, I try and couch my objections in a gentle and caring fashion. Pestering will usually get you nowhere. If you unapologetic about your smoking, I have no objection to that either (I live in Spain for at least two months a year and you wouldn't believe what Spanish cigarettes smell like!), but you have to know that I will not be sympathetic to your future suffering either. I have gone to a lot of funerals here in Spain where smoking was involved--always very sad.

One last thing--getting a faceful of unwanted smoke is perhaps one of the most distasteful experiences one can have in public. I don't care whose culture it is, it's still disgusting and dangerous. If you want to smoke, knock yourself out, but don't do it around me unless it's legal because I'll tell you to put it out.
 

You know what bothers me, it is the people that are too chicken to say anything so they just fake cough when the walk past you. This used to happen all the time in college. We would be smoking outside and some little blonde sorority girl who had been brainwashed by those "Truth" commercials (which, coincidentally always make me want to smoke) would walk by and cough right as she passed us. Just a little demur cough, but always enough so we got the point. And this was always despite the fact that we were a good 5 to 10 feet away from her and clearly trying to avoid blowing smoke on anyone walking by. Making an effort to do exactly that.

I hated those people. And after a while the fake cough just earned you a lot of unpleasant words from the degenerate smokers who really just want to be left alone and weren't even blowing smoke anywhere near you hippie.

Healthy people bum me out. You know what, you want me to keep my cigarettes away from you, then you keep your tofu, all natural, raw, green, no caffeine, no booze, no tobacco, no fun, rainforest, etc. crap away from me.

Keith Richards smokes. Has for 50 years. And I think it makes him look cool. And if it is good enough for Keith than it is good enough for me.

Plus, an old cigarette ad taught me that if you "blow in her face...she'll follow you anywhere." Seriously. Smoking is legit.
 

RRL (and the other pro-smoking types)-- your smoking would be OK if you only wouldn't exhale.
Suck it in all you like. And keep it there, with my blessing.
Tell Rush hi next time you see him at Walgreens.
Bob
 

Just a note - I haven't listened to a Rush show on the radio in a decade, at the very least, maybe longer than that. I listen to Howard Stern on Sirius. And I've never read an Ann Coulter book or column.

However, I encourage you all to continue to throw out their names in order to signal to your fellow Maddow/Olbermann clones that you're hip and know the latest liberal putdown techniques. It is like a digital gang sign or something.

Bunch of hippies. Get off my lawn. Smoke 'em if you got 'em!!
 

A Couple of Parting Shots:

1. Without being too insensitive, the "dead relative" arguments are just a bit too maudlin and facile. We live in an uncertain and sometimes cruel world in which bad things happen to good people. We make choices and they have consequences. Sometimes we make all the right choices and still things still go terribly wrong. It is the height of hubris to think we can save someone from themselves.

2. Enough with the RRL punching bag routine. Or, at the very least, come up with something better than he is a Rush clone. Not that RRL needs defending--but the bit has just played out.

Other than that, from my perspective, things look pretty rosy in the Razor world.
Goodnight.
 

I don't smoke, but maybe if I did I'd stop chewing my nails.

On a serious note, I know people who smoke and drink too much. Telling them to stop doesn't work. They have to do it on their own. They KNOW its a bad idea.

If they could come up with a cigarette that would not cause cancer and other diseases, I'd start smoking immediately.

And I'm with Tradelawguy. No cigarettes in the Old Dominion's prisons? Seems like a REALLY bad idea.
 

About my previous comment--
What I meant is that if a person that you love is overweight, then most people believe that is a personal problem. Don't ask me why. But there might be other reasons why they're fat. Maybe they actually do have a slow metabolism. Perhaps they have some disease. You don't start smoking because you're diseased with it. The disease of smoking starts after you've started. And that leads to the many other diseases, including, but not limited to, lung cancer.

About public smoking bans--
They do everything for non-smokers. I'm not talking about just going into seedy bars. Would you say, for example, that if you don't want secondhand smoke, you shouldn't go down this street, or sit in this park, etc. etc. I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home. But, please, give only yourself lung cancer. Leave me out of this.
 

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Dear Waco Farmer,
All due respect, but watching a loved one die of lung cancer is not a facile argument. The tragedy that is lung cancer is one I hope you never have to face because you will remember this conversation.
 

I can't write a decent comment on this issue, b/c it makes me so damned angry.