Osler's Razor

Yes. I think Mayor Bloomberg said it best in his incredible speech on the issue:

“On Sept. 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked, ‘What God do you pray to?’ ‘What beliefs do you hold?’

The attack was an act of war, and our first responders defended not only our city, but our country and our constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked."
 

If they have the land, what are you going to do- create a Muslim-free zone?
 

There are already 2 mosques within walking distance of ground zero. New Yorker's walk by them every day and most have no idea they are doing so. This is suppose to be an Islamic 'Education' Center. I don't think that is the same thing as a mosque.

I personally don't have a problem with this but can assure you there is some 'nut case' (there always is) out there who will take matters into their own hands.
 

To me, it doesn't particularly matter if it's a good idea. It's something the mosque planners have a right to do. According to our founders, it's a God-given right. The only way to stop the mosque(for those who want to) would be through patently unconstitutional action or islamophobic public pressure. The planners seem to have no problem dealing with difficult public sentiments, so that really only leave the other.
 

I think that if they want to build it there they can, and they should, and they will be allowed to do so. But, I don't know if it is as simple as "they have the right to do so." A couple of thoughts:

1. Like it matters. I figure between the unions and bureaucracy that come with New York City construction the mosque (read education center with a mosque inside it) will take about 349 years to build. By then we will all be in spaceships and stuff, and on hoverboards like we were promised in Back to the Future II. This will be of little concern by then.

2. In response to the, "there are already two mosques there" argument I point to this article:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/244150/about-those-other-ground-zero-mosques-nr-intern

Lets at least compare apples to apples here.

3. I assume if you think that it should be built purely because they have the right to build it, and because we have to show some kind of tolerance in this country, then I also suppose you would support the Michigan Militia or some other anti-government organization with white-pride leanings buying up land two blocks from the site of the Oklahoma City bombings and building its headquarters there, right? Free speech and all. In other words, just because it is constitutionally protected doesn't make it a good idea.

4. Finally, we know that some people (something like 70% of Americans) have a problem with it being there. My question is, why are they so set on building it right there? Many groups have suggested they build it somewhere else in the city. Why is right there so important? And we all know the answer. The location matters to make a point. And maybe that point is a good one. I haven't read anything about this group to suggest they are anything other than fine upstanding US citizens with a good mission of western democratic openness and acceptance. But, even they acknowledge that the location matters. And it matters to a lot of other people as well, but for different reasons. Why should we only respect their reasons and not the reasons of millions of Americans that view that ground as somehow sacred.

I'm not for it or against it. I believe in property rights, and therefore I believe that if they bought the ground and they wanna build on it they can and should. But sometimes it isn't a quesiton of what is legally permissible. Sometimes we ought to ask, "is this wise." And I don't know if I see the wisdom in it.

P.S. - I have however enjoyed watching Obama, the nuanced genius president, completely mishandle this one in the most tone deaf way possible yet again. That guy is great.
 

I think that if they want to build it there they can, and they should, and they will be allowed to do so. But, I don't know if it is as simple as "they have the right to do so." A couple of thoughts:

1. Like it matters. I figure between the unions and bureaucracy that come with New York City construction the mosque (read education center with a mosque inside it) will take about 349 years to build. By then we will all be in spaceships and stuff, and on hoverboards like we were promised in Back to the Future II. This will be of little concern by then.

2. In response to the, "there are already two mosques there" argument I point to this article:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/244150/about-those-other-ground-zero-mosques-nr-intern

Lets at least compare apples to apples here.

3. I assume if you think that it should be built purely because they have the right to build it, and because we have to show some kind of tolerance in this country, then I also suppose you would support the Michigan Militia or some other anti-government organization with white-pride leanings buying up land two blocks from the site of the Oklahoma City bombings and building its headquarters there, right? Free speech and all. In other words, just because it is constitutionally protected doesn't make it a good idea.

4. Finally, we know that some people (something like 70% of Americans) have a problem with it being there. My question is, why are they so set on building it right there? Many groups have suggested they build it somewhere else in the city. Why is right there so important? And we all know the answer. The location matters to make a point. And maybe that point is a good one. I haven't read anything about this group to suggest they are anything other than fine upstanding US citizens with a good mission of western democratic openness and acceptance. But, even they acknowledge that the location matters. And it matters to a lot of other people as well, but for different reasons. Why should we only respect their reasons and not the reasons of millions of Americans that view that ground as somehow sacred.

I'm not for it or against it. I believe in property rights, and therefore I believe that if they bought the ground and they wanna build on it they can and should. But sometimes it isn't a quesiton of what is legally permissible. Sometimes we ought to ask, "is this wise." And I don't know if I see the wisdom in it.

P.S. - I have however enjoyed watching Obama, the nuanced genius president, completely mishandle this one in the most tone deaf way possible yet again. That guy is great.
 

When is RRL going to post?
 

I agree with Micah, RRL should comment on this as soon as possible and in multiple posts.

This Imam does not so moderate to me, but even so, I generally agree with the other posters -- let them build it... but accept the fact that by doing so, they will most likely attract protesters and trouble.

Religious Freedom should and is tempered by safety. To use the classic example, the First Amendment protects your right to yell "Fire," but not in a crowded theater. Its likely that most communities would not let the American Nazi Party open an office next to a synoguoge. Protestors have to stay back a certain distance, etc.

But the hallowed ground argument doesn't convince me. New York is a city where everything is constantly torn down and rebuilt. I don't see a special exception for this spot.
 

Location Matters...
There is a subway stop at the corner with multiple lines running through this part of town. Transportation to any type of eduction center is essential in Manhattan.

I find it funny that 70% of Americans supposedly have a problem with this. 70% of Americans don't live in the NY metro area or have even visited NY City. To me it is a community decision.

In fact, most people who work in NY City know the shortest route from their office to their preferred mode of transportation and will never even walk down this block in lower Manhattan. I once went to this Burlington Coat Factory location and it was quite a non-descript block in lower Manhattan.

RRL - I will take a look at the article.
 

RRL- I wouldn't support the building of a center whatever next to the Murrah Building site, but I would support the property owner's right to build one if they wanted to. Just like I think the Ground Zero mosque is probably in poor taste, but at the same time recognizing that my opinion (or 70% of Americans') doesn't affect the right of the mosque planners to build whatever they want to. To me, whether or not it's a good idea is none of my concern. Isn't there a mangled and misattributed Voltaire quote that sums all this up?

Also, I want my hoverboard NOW, as promised.
 

I find it interesting that everyone approaches this from the American point of view, focusing on what American's think, and the protections afforded by our Constitution. What about the viewpoint of the many Muslims throughout the world? If the mosque is built elsewhere it will be billed as "American hates Muslims," and if it is built at the currently proposed location it will be used in propaganda to demonstrate how weak America is in the face of Islam, e.g. "We have errected a Mosque to commemorate our victory on 9/11." Win-Win. Stop and give pause when you consider the number one advocate for the mosque: the Council on American-Islam Relations. Do your own research and form your own conclusions.

If the goal was to build an Islamic center to bring peace and unity, then they have failed before construction begins.
 

if it is built at the currently proposed location it will be used in propaganda to demonstrate how weak America is in the face of Islam

So our decisions should take into consideration how radical Islamic propaganda will reflect on them? That seems to play into exactly what the 9/11 attackers would've wanted. The mistake here is conflating Islam with Islamic terrorists, which is like conflating evangelical Christians with the nutjobs that bomb abortion clinics.

Also, it's important to consider the actual location of the proposed community center- it's several blocks away from the WTC site. 2 blocks in New York City is like 10 miles in Houston. There are entire cultures, classes of people, and zip codes separated by 2 blocks. The 9/11 attacks may have affected us all, but this issue belongs to the people of the City of New York, and it's difficult for non-New Yorkers to understand exactly what the result of this proposed community center will be.
 

Justin, you make valid points, but you rely upon facts and common sense - both the enemy of propaganda. On which platform do you plan on conveying your message to the Muslim world?

I have not made the mistake of conflating Islam with Islamic terrorist. Both here and overseas there are anti-American sentiments that never amount to direct radical action. Those sentiments, however, often lead to support (sometimes unwittingly) of NPO fronts that fund terror. See CAIR and its founding members. I only sought to point out how this mosque is a victory already because the topic can be effectively used as fuel for the fire of anti-American sentiment, something we have never been able to effectively counter.

Oh, and you are damn right our decisions should consider how the Islamic world will perceive them. Contrary to the current administrations belief, there is still a war on terror, and very hateful people are actively seeking soldiers for their cause - with propaganda.
 

Those sentiments, however, often lead to support (sometimes unwittingly) of NPO fronts that fund terror.

If we're really concerned about funding terror, perhaps we should not let the banks that knowingly do so buy their way out of prosecution.

Contrary to the current administrations belief, there is still a war on terror, and very hateful people are actively seeking soldiers for their cause - with propaganda.

So how are we supposed to combat this? It's become pretty clear at this point that you can't fight an ideology with bombs and guns, as that only exacerbates the problem. The solution comes through increased efforts at outreach to the Muslim community, and an increased understanding of the underlying social and political causes of anti-American sentiment. Something that, say, an Islamic community center would be good for.
 

Yes Justin, the hug an Iranian approach has worked so well.
 

First, there aren't even concrete plans yet. The group hasn't hit their fundraising goal; they can't even buy the land yet.

Second, "two New York City blocks" is a lot larger than those of us that live in smaller areas think.

Third, it's private land, they're zoned for it, and if they pay, then they pay. It's really funny to see people that decry "big government" asking big government to step in here to prevent it.

Fourth, one of the few things I ever heard Dubya say that I agree with was that we are not at war with Islam. More than just a politically expedient statement, I think that it was an honest statement by our last President. Although there will always be xenophobes who see Islam as a "foreign" religion and question the ability of Muslims Americans to be patriotic, I do not think that this is a majority view.

And even if it is, the reason was have the Bill of Rights is to protect vulnerable minorities against the tyranny of the majority.

More than there already being mosques in the area, there were Muslims and a mosque that were killed/destroyed by the September 11 attacks. Al Qaeda relies on the belief that Islam must be at war with the West to recruit and energize their supporters. We play into their hands if we perpetuate that myth that the US harbors hostility toward Islam.

Finally, if the Michigan Milita purchased land in Oklahoma and wanted to hold their meetings there, yes, that is their right to do so. But I have a concomitant right to protest outside every day. If Sarah Palin and Company want to spend their days picketing the Park51 center (if it ever gets built), well, it's nice to have hobbies, I suppose.
 

Brian - As an American the only point of view I can offer is of an American.

~*~*
It is a media error to say this Mosque/Islamic Education Center is being built at Ground Zero. It is not. Ground Zero is still a pit of dirt and pilings; a site of a great tragedy; sitting atop the terminal end of the PATH Station. They recently found the an old ship buried at the site as this part of Manhattan is mostly land fill.

This new center is being built a number of blocks north of the World Trade Center site. At 15stories there will be NO VIEW of the site. There are many very large buildings between the two sites. From my stand point, as an American who lived and worked in lower Manhattan for close to 10 years it will look like a newly constructed building in a 'no mans land' of lower Manhattan. That is after the many years it will take to construct.

~*~*~
RRL - I read the article. I love the Bubble Lounge.
 

So I gather that most are in agreement with the fundamental property rights of the owners.

What I don't agree with however is that this is squarely a NYC issue. While I do believe that the local rules should control the decision, I don't believe that this is an issue that DOES NOT affect everyone else...otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it.

People were personally affected by the events of 9-11 around the country, especially those with relatives there, or relatives who were the ones responding.
So I don't like the insinuation that everyone else just needs to basically shut up about it beacuse it's not their problem. We are a United country after all and decisions that happen in NYC sometimes do matter here if for no other reason than the psyche of the rest of the Nation.
It's a bit like saying that only Hawaii was affected by Dec 6th and only people there should have made the decision to go to war.
It's an important place for me and yet I've never been there. Do I think it wise, no. Do I think they should be able to build it there, absolutely.
 

Wait, tell me more about hugging Iranians? Do I get to choose? There are some hot Persian babes out there!
 

Isn’t Archbishop Dolan’s comparison (though I don’t think he was the first to mention it) to the convent at Auschwitz the most apt? http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/giuliani-says-mosque-near-ground-zero-is-offensive/ Also I don’t see why a debate about constitutional property rights applies here, since all credible voices seem to agree that the group has a right to build a mosque on private property...subject to applicable zoning laws. Had the “landmarks preservation commission” voted the other way to disallow the mosque, would they have violated constitutional rights? “Islamophobic public pressure” also has something to do with Constitutional rights as I recall hearing when GWB was president. Speaking of Dubya, the most laughable part of this process is the Robert-Gibbs-drug-testing-required-professional-left asking Bush to intervene and "bail-out" Obama. I guess the "miss me yet" sign on I-35 is not so far off.

Also, the whole ground zero/not ground zero argument is confusing to me. If site in question was a “site of a building that was hit on 9/11 by a hijacked airliner's landing gear”, doesn’t that at least make it pretty close to “ground zero” (if not part of ground zero)? http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/gov_to_meet_on_mosque_move_ZiSFdJrD5kqi7p4XFT4TBO

Overall, I might be agreeing with Howard Dean and Harry Reid for the first time in saying that I don’t think the mosque should be built as planned. Let’s rebuild the towers and the church that were actually destroyed on 9/11 first. That would probably help national unity.
 

Certainly, the folks who want to build the mosque or Islamic Center have a constitutional right to do so.

This is not in dispute.

The question with which people are wrestling is, "Is it in good taste?"
 

In terms of lawful exercise of property rights, is building a Wal-Mart in poor taste?
 

Building a Wal-Mart, while legal, is always in poor taste.
 

Well sure, unless you're unemployed and need one of the 100s of jobs Wal-Mart will bring to your town, or you're poor and would like to pay $5 for a pair of jeans to send your kids to school in.
 

I think they should build another trendy restaurant. There are not enough of those in NY. Also, Make sure they charge $45.00 for an omelette.
 

Preventing this Islamic center from opening would only play into the radicals' hands.

Preventing this Islamic center from opening would be a betrayal of everything we say that we stand for.