Sunday, August 09, 2009
Sunday Reflection: Linda Richman and Mr. CL return
After a week's absence, Mr. CL and Linda Richman are back on the razor with something to discuss amongst yourselves today. I'll even give you a topic "The Holy Roman Empire....it wasn't Roman, it wasn't an empire and why are their priests still celibate. Discuss."
So desipite my extensive research in my Us Weekly and OK magazine subscirptions, I was still puzzled. Varklempt is a better work. So I asked myself, what would Barbara do? After singing the chorus of Memories, I turned on my 95 Packard Bell and went to Google - I mean it's like buttah.
My first results were the >Catholic Encyclopedia (Note to Interns beginning August 24 - your first assignment is to write the Judge Jeffy Encyclopedia) and the always accurate Wikipedia. I was surprised to discover that celibacy is not a black letter rule in Catholicism, just one that requires special permission to break. In fact, in Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches married men are allowed to be ordained - but they only get one wife regardless of death or divorce so choose wisely.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "[f]rom the earliest period the Church was personified and conceived of by her disciples as the Virgin Bride and as the pure Body of Christ, or again as the Virgin Mother (parthenos meter), and it was plainly fitting that this virgin Church should be served by a virgin priesthood." The vow of celibacy is not found anywhere in the New Testament....in fact two of the most influential leaders in the New Testament - Peter and Paul - were married men.
So what do you think, should this strong suggestion be put to rest? Give a call, we'll talk, no big whoop.
Comments:
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Forced suppression of the most basic human desires generally leads to problems. If they choose to do so, that's their business, but anecdotally it seems like there are a lot less sex-related problems among the non-celibate clergy.
Man and woman he created them, man and woman they are integral to his creation. Not to be trite, but it seems ridiculous to me that priests, who are called to counsel us about all sorts of male-female interactions, really have only an academic knowledge of the subject. Temptation to sin carnally, they probably understand. Temptation to throttle your wife when "discussing" paint colors, they will never fully comprehend.
Go Anglicans!
Go Anglicans!
Your comments are like buttah! It may come as a surprise, but I too am an Episcopalian. God bless. Our rectors are married. Love my rector's wife, need to share her with you on Coffee Talk. My bishop is also married and we've never had a problem with them either. Both, loyal, faithful husbands. I should be so lucky,
Linda Richman
Linda Richman
# posted by 
: 9:41 PM
: 9:41 PM
Well, I hear those who are calling for clergy to have to experience married life before counseling married couples...
I would ask those of you to be consistent in your following professional needs:
1) If you are a woman, you would not think of going to a male ob/gyn medical professional, because he obviously could not experience what you are experiencing in these medical situations....(and of course, this would go without saying that no man should ever want to consult with a female urologist.)
2) Regardless of your gender/marital status, I hope you make sure your child's elementary school teacher/high school teacher is a parent him/herself, because of course, they would be clueless about teaching young children/young adults unless they were parents themselves.
3) And of course, I would hope that you thoroughly examine the background of the social worker/nurse practitioner/caregiver that works with you when your elderly spouse/parent/grandparent is in need of hospice care...wouldn't want any of these individuals to be giving you any kind of advice unless each of them had a loved one who had a long, painful death from a debilitating disease...right?
Care to answer this, Jesse Davis?
Because each of the individuals I mentioned above have only an "academic knowledge of the subject" that they have devoted their lives to.
I would ask those of you to be consistent in your following professional needs:
1) If you are a woman, you would not think of going to a male ob/gyn medical professional, because he obviously could not experience what you are experiencing in these medical situations....(and of course, this would go without saying that no man should ever want to consult with a female urologist.)
2) Regardless of your gender/marital status, I hope you make sure your child's elementary school teacher/high school teacher is a parent him/herself, because of course, they would be clueless about teaching young children/young adults unless they were parents themselves.
3) And of course, I would hope that you thoroughly examine the background of the social worker/nurse practitioner/caregiver that works with you when your elderly spouse/parent/grandparent is in need of hospice care...wouldn't want any of these individuals to be giving you any kind of advice unless each of them had a loved one who had a long, painful death from a debilitating disease...right?
Care to answer this, Jesse Davis?
Because each of the individuals I mentioned above have only an "academic knowledge of the subject" that they have devoted their lives to.
# posted by : 10:28 PM
: 10:28 PM
Of course! I never said a celibate Catholic priest couldn't be a wonderfully able and caring counselor on any number of subjects. And I certainly respect (and sometimes envy) priests' ability to dedicate their lives to something greater than themselves. But I do think there are certain areas in the lives of their flocks that priests could have a deeper understanding of. Just as in the other professional fields you mentioned, one can learn volumes through training and prolonged interaction. But all the training and empathy in the world simply can't replace actual experience. Again, many celibate priests are excellent marriage counselors, but on the whole I think married (or previously married) priests and pastors are better suited to the job.
Just for the record, most women I know won't see a male ob/gyn, all of the teachers I had in school had kids (except the youngest ones and one creepy guy), and I personally know individuals who have gone into the social work, palliative care, or geriatrics because they had experience from their own families to share with others. They were some of the best counselors around, from what I'm told.
Just for the record, most women I know won't see a male ob/gyn, all of the teachers I had in school had kids (except the youngest ones and one creepy guy), and I personally know individuals who have gone into the social work, palliative care, or geriatrics because they had experience from their own families to share with others. They were some of the best counselors around, from what I'm told.
Some people are called to it, celibacy that is. Perhaps, there are not many so called, but some men and women are. If so called, then the monastic life is for that person. Not all monks and nuns, and there are Orthodox and Protestant varieties of those religious as well as RC, get priested as they say in the trade. Some do, some do not.
Peter, regarded as the first Pope in the RC Church, was married. Paul was not. Paul thought that it was okay to marry, but he preferred Christians to be celibate because the end of the world was going to happen real soon. Paul was convinced that it would happen in his lifetime.
I think that the Orthodox have it right: local Church pastors (priests) are allowed to marry. Bishops, who can travel a great deal and who can oversee congregations spread across a great area, are drawn only from the monastic orders.
Enforced celibacy, or the model which sometimes appears in conservative Protestant denominations in which it is an expectation that the pastor will have a large family and a "submissive wife", are destructive to all concerned.
The RC Church model of celibacy as a prerequisite for priesthood has no precedent in the Orthodox Church which really is an older institution than the RC Church. It really dates from a papal bull in the eleventh century CE which sought to keep RC priests from passing on Church property to their sons.
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Peter, regarded as the first Pope in the RC Church, was married. Paul was not. Paul thought that it was okay to marry, but he preferred Christians to be celibate because the end of the world was going to happen real soon. Paul was convinced that it would happen in his lifetime.
I think that the Orthodox have it right: local Church pastors (priests) are allowed to marry. Bishops, who can travel a great deal and who can oversee congregations spread across a great area, are drawn only from the monastic orders.
Enforced celibacy, or the model which sometimes appears in conservative Protestant denominations in which it is an expectation that the pastor will have a large family and a "submissive wife", are destructive to all concerned.
The RC Church model of celibacy as a prerequisite for priesthood has no precedent in the Orthodox Church which really is an older institution than the RC Church. It really dates from a papal bull in the eleventh century CE which sought to keep RC priests from passing on Church property to their sons.
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