Wednesday, September 24, 2008
Gettin' a Job!
The month of September is interview time at Amcerica's law schools, and Baylor is no exception. Suddenly, t-shirts and ball caps were replaced by suits and ties, and I would often pass nervous-looking 2L's heading down the hall of the 2d floor.
Some people will get jobs, others will have to keep looking. Right now, I realize, it may look like there are winners and losers-- those who got offers or call-backs are the winners, and everyone else is a loser. I would like to offer a different view of that.
Here are some general truths I have observed about hiring. Those of you with experience, please feel free to agree or disagree in the comments section:
1) Often, those who get jobs first are the ones who are the most unhappy after two years.
2) Conversely, those who struggle the most and for the longest often end up with the job that best fits them, and which makes them feel happy and fulfilled. I have seen this over and over in my crim law students, who often are in the bottom half of the class and struggle the longest to find a job, but come back to see me very content with what they have found.
3) A lot of money is never enough.
4) In a few cases, people have terrible job struggles, and only reach the right place in tiny increments. That struggle, though, often helps create a great lawyer, judge, or professor.
5) Everyone has struggled with job finding at some point, even those of us who are most advantaged.
Comments:
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I've found that if you want to be a prosecutor, your class rank doesn't matter if you haven't passed the bar. You could even have graduated in the top ten of your class and still struggle. So you have to be patient until you get those results. Then things seem to fall into place.
Good timing, Professor. I'm not interviewing, but I still see the stratifying effect this OCI business has had my class. I wish they all read the Razor so could get this perspective.
I took a job at a big law firm that pays about 20% less than the BIG law firms. I'm in my first few weeks and absolutely made the right decision.
The firm has made a conscious decision to pay its lawyers in time rather than mammon.
Even non-professors, non-criminal types can find good jobs!
Advice: Don't judge firms solely by the starting salary.
The firm has made a conscious decision to pay its lawyers in time rather than mammon.
Even non-professors, non-criminal types can find good jobs!
Advice: Don't judge firms solely by the starting salary.
# posted by 
: 4:36 PM
: 4:36 PM
I agree with the post. I struggled to find a job (despite having a good, but not great, ranking and GPA). I was unemployed for several months after the bar and then took a contract job with a solo practitioner. After the contract expired, I was again unemployed for two months as I searched for a job. I finally found one with a solo practitioner working in the area of law I wanted. I now love my job, the firm has expanded, and I am starting new ventures with my boss. I can't think of a place I'd rather be.
# posted by : 4:49 PM
: 4:49 PM
My GPA was lousy and I am pretty sure I was not in the top 50% of my class. Even so, I am a Partner at an AMLAW 100 firm.
And I am not alone. Persistence, patience and personality is what got me here.
Like the Prof said, many of my classmates who got big money job offers right away are no longer with the big firms. I can only think of one person in my class (1990) who is still at the same firm. And I can think of dozens who moved to something that does not necessarily pay as well, but suited their style.
And I am not alone. Persistence, patience and personality is what got me here.
Like the Prof said, many of my classmates who got big money job offers right away are no longer with the big firms. I can only think of one person in my class (1990) who is still at the same firm. And I can think of dozens who moved to something that does not necessarily pay as well, but suited their style.
# posted by : 5:01 PM
: 5:01 PM
self described president of the "Bottom Quarter Social Club" during law school.
took bar early in feb
graduated end of april
bar results first thursday in may
job offer next day as prosecutor in dallas
started job at the end of May
promotion to chief of midemeanor court in 6 months + raise
felony prosecutor + raise in 1 year
second prosecutor for felony court + raise a year after that.
over 50+ jury trials, 25 or so in felony.
can't say that my GPA hurt me, and I love the job I do,
so yeah...most of my classmates (excluding Dustin - see above) are jealous and rightly so.
took bar early in feb
graduated end of april
bar results first thursday in may
job offer next day as prosecutor in dallas
started job at the end of May
promotion to chief of midemeanor court in 6 months + raise
felony prosecutor + raise in 1 year
second prosecutor for felony court + raise a year after that.
over 50+ jury trials, 25 or so in felony.
can't say that my GPA hurt me, and I love the job I do,
so yeah...most of my classmates (excluding Dustin - see above) are jealous and rightly so.
# posted by : 7:20 PM
: 7:20 PM
Law school oversells itself for 66% of law students. You go into it being told "You're going to get out of here and do anything you want. You'll make a ton of money! You'll get a great job!" and then, somewhere around 2nd year, it's like "Ohhhh, well, not you". I had 5 interviews. One was for a job I would actually really want (it's a government job, though, so I'll be waiting til Nov. to hear back). I live with someone who got 13 interviews, all at big firms, and has 5 callbacks already--all at firms that wouldn't even LOOK at me. It's a hard situation to be living in. All I can think is that God has a bigger plan, and it'll come together, but at the moment I hate OCI to the very marrow of my soul.
What *really* stinks is actually being in the top 15% (and working your ass off to get there) and *still* not getting any jobs. Must be my atrocious personality.
# posted by : 7:42 PM
: 7:42 PM
At least there are firms and agencies coming on campus to interview you. In an English MA program like I was in, nobody cared one whit whether you could get a job later or not -- only for the PhD students, and even then it was really tough.
Of course, that's why a lot of people bailed and went on to law school . . .
Of course, that's why a lot of people bailed and went on to law school . . .
# posted by : 11:01 PM
: 11:01 PM
But I think the professor's right: in my various and bumbling career, it's always been the case that one job, even if it was a flop or not the right fit for me, taught me things I could use in the next one. And perversely, being really unhappy in one job can be a terrific motivator to finding another one that's much better.
But you guys will find satisfying work in short order. Making the decision to go to law school was probably a huge step in the right direction, in itself. Once you're there, you make some helpful connections, I would think . . .
But you guys will find satisfying work in short order. Making the decision to go to law school was probably a huge step in the right direction, in itself. Once you're there, you make some helpful connections, I would think . . .
# posted by : 11:06 PM
: 11:06 PM
My two cents:
In this my second year of OCI, I've realized that while I have a lot fewer interviews, I care a lot more about each of my interviews. These are jobs I'd really want to have rather than jobs I'd take just to pay the bills.
In this my second year of OCI, I've realized that while I have a lot fewer interviews, I care a lot more about each of my interviews. These are jobs I'd really want to have rather than jobs I'd take just to pay the bills.
I agree that these are words of wisdom/comfort that a 2L, particularly at Baylor, needs to hear. My only additional advice is to do what you love, something that will encourage you to get out of bed day after day, even if it is not the job you dreamed of when you read your acceptance letter from Dean Toben.
I did not participate in OCI, to be honest I found it repellant. I obtained my own summer work by asking around and making some phone calls. DA offices and small firms respond well to summer interns, and many will bring you back on wages, then salary once you are licensed- if they like what they see.
Of course, when you are in the trenches at BLS it is difficult to keep perspective. Just don't forget: hard work, integrity and humility build reputations in this biz, not grades or job offers.
I did not participate in OCI, to be honest I found it repellant. I obtained my own summer work by asking around and making some phone calls. DA offices and small firms respond well to summer interns, and many will bring you back on wages, then salary once you are licensed- if they like what they see.
Of course, when you are in the trenches at BLS it is difficult to keep perspective. Just don't forget: hard work, integrity and humility build reputations in this biz, not grades or job offers.
I heard the summer jobs are great and then they screw you if you work there later because the attractive time of getting comped is over and now you have to work.
I was actually surprised with some of my classmates getting interviews because they are lower in rankings than I am. I'm not sad I didn't participate; however, I still wonder how many firms, if any, I'd have gotten interviews with.
I saw no point in participating since a majority were civil firms and I don't want any part of that.
I was actually surprised with some of my classmates getting interviews because they are lower in rankings than I am. I'm not sad I didn't participate; however, I still wonder how many firms, if any, I'd have gotten interviews with.
I saw no point in participating since a majority were civil firms and I don't want any part of that.
That's all well and good if you don't have six figure debt which sort of dictates your career options. It's good to have options but I think we need to look at the cost of law school if we want to talk seriously about job options.
# posted by : 4:09 PM
: 4:09 PM
Anon-
sorry, my comment was more opaque than I intended.
I was musing whether the people who will be tapped by the government to distribute the fund will be the same individuals who recently occupied the offices of bears stearns, Morgan stanley, lehman bro, etc.
sorry, my comment was more opaque than I intended.
I was musing whether the people who will be tapped by the government to distribute the fund will be the same individuals who recently occupied the offices of bears stearns, Morgan stanley, lehman bro, etc.
I think this is right. I didn't like any of the offers that I got and did my own thing. It's working out fine. Something folks still in school may not realize - lots of lawyers switch jobs frequently until they find what they want. Jobs are also much easier to come by after you've been out awhile and networked. They're both easier to find and easier to get. Nobody I've talked to after getting licensed has ever asked about my GPA.
Don't worry about the debt, either, you can get a forbearance or deferment until you get the kind of $$ you need. The opportunities for lawyers with 3 or more years of experience are great, even now. Good Luck!!!
Don't worry about the debt, either, you can get a forbearance or deferment until you get the kind of $$ you need. The opportunities for lawyers with 3 or more years of experience are great, even now. Good Luck!!!
# posted by : 6:08 PM
: 6:08 PM
Want to be a prosecutor, but have no bar results, so no one's interested.
Took a job doing document review for an electronic discovery company. I use the JD, but really, it's reading people's e-mail. Maybe this qualifies me for a NSA position? I don't know.
But it's a paycheck until I get my bar results and, er... this is embarrassing, Professor... retake my MPRE. Apparently taking less than two weeks after the Bar is not a great idea.
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Took a job doing document review for an electronic discovery company. I use the JD, but really, it's reading people's e-mail. Maybe this qualifies me for a NSA position? I don't know.
But it's a paycheck until I get my bar results and, er... this is embarrassing, Professor... retake my MPRE. Apparently taking less than two weeks after the Bar is not a great idea.
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