Wednesday, March 26, 2008
U.S. News law school rankings leaking all over the internet
The leaked numbers from different sources match, and (if past history holds) are probably credible. You can see the full list of the top 100 here.
Baylor ranks 55, which is pretty much the same spot as last year (53). There are a large number of schools bunched up around 50, which means small differences can change things significantly. UT is tied for 16th, SMU comes in at #46, and the University of Houston is tied with Baylor at #55.
There was a little movement near the top. UC-Berkeley (Boalt Hall) moved up to #6, which may be its highest ranking ever.
The biggest mover in recent years seems to be Pepperdine, which at the start of this decade was not in the top 100, climbed to #87 by 2006, and now have pulled up close to the first tier at #59. I have some positive insights on how they have done this, in part based on my recent visit there, but will save that for another day.
Regarding Baylor: As the rankings reflect, we are an anomoly in a way which is consistent with our mission. Our reputation score among practitioners is stronger than the schools around us in the rankings, and our reputation score among academics is weaker than the schools around us. But, our bar pass rate is the highest of any school reported on the first page (up to number 59), and may end up being the highest of any school overall. (Note that Wisconsin is reported at 100%, but that is because graduates of that school don't have to take the Wisconsin bar exam to join the bar there). Baylor's pass rate is an amazing 98.5%. #1 overall, Yale, has only a 91.2% pass rate. Should this matter? Absolutely, since the bar pass rate is one of the only true objective measures used. It is a hard, verifiable number, unlike the self-reporting of employment, or the even spongier reporting by law professors about which other schools they like.
At what we do, prepare people to practice law, we can and will continue to say that we are among the very best.
Comments:
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Why has Baylor fallen consistently over the last 4 years while tuition has gone up very significantly?
These are questions young recent grads, current and prospective students should be told.
These are questions young recent grads, current and prospective students should be told.
# posted by 
: 1:00 PM
: 1:00 PM
While the rankings system may be viewed as flawed by many individuals, it is in fact the first information many people look to when deciding where to attend school. I think that our fall has been disturbing, yes I agree with Anon. at 12, however, I would like to know the cause of our fall. Some of us have already secured employment, however, for those that have not, the fact that Baylor is not higher-ranked is likely having a detrimental effect on our job prospects.
# posted by : 3:22 PM
: 3:22 PM
The cause for the dip seems pretty obvious on the numbers-- low scores for academic reputation and for job placement at graduation. The academic reputation probably isn't helped by having mostly Baylor grads on the faculty.
# posted by : 4:03 PM
: 4:03 PM
Given our job prospects and reputation outside of our stellar bar passage rate, the rise of SMU and UH should disturb BLS admin, faculty and students greatly. We can no longer lay claim to being the second best Texas school after UT in this most-important measure of law schools.
Besides bar passage, another objective measure of our school's value is their average starting salary. This figure is lower than SMUs and UHs. This should be troubling. This is both a career services and a perception problem.
Look at the sheer # of Baylor degrees among the faculty and admin and it should be clear that BLS looks within for the source of its excellence. Measuring yourself by your own standards will not only lead to stagnation, but decline as well. We must continue to push for a world-class academic environment which fits with Baylor's unique mission.
Falling to 55 is no cause for a complete revolution, but the rise of two peer institutions in UH and SMU in relation to BLS should give pause for reflection on the reason for their success relative to us.
Being located in Waco, a small legal market, means we have to work harder at establishing our reputation nationally, as our grads mostly leave the city where the school is located.
End Rant.
Besides bar passage, another objective measure of our school's value is their average starting salary. This figure is lower than SMUs and UHs. This should be troubling. This is both a career services and a perception problem.
Look at the sheer # of Baylor degrees among the faculty and admin and it should be clear that BLS looks within for the source of its excellence. Measuring yourself by your own standards will not only lead to stagnation, but decline as well. We must continue to push for a world-class academic environment which fits with Baylor's unique mission.
Falling to 55 is no cause for a complete revolution, but the rise of two peer institutions in UH and SMU in relation to BLS should give pause for reflection on the reason for their success relative to us.
Being located in Waco, a small legal market, means we have to work harder at establishing our reputation nationally, as our grads mostly leave the city where the school is located.
End Rant.
# posted by : 4:11 PM
: 4:11 PM
you have to assume that because we graduate so few each year our reputation will suffer (for instance there are only a handful of ADAs in dallas from baylor out of 220. Legal professionals aren't going to see many graduates often and thus we won't be considered.
Also, we all know our career services office has, thus far, been pretty abysmal at getting our soon to be graduates out into the workforce. It's really sad that given our low numbers many of our recent grads continue to find themselves unemployed (in the legal field that is). We should have 100% full employment at graduation with less than 100 grads, but it never happens.
I would also argue that our reported numbers are inflated. I know I did the math for our year and the numbers were off by as much as 10%.
Until Baylor starts holding more CLEs around the state, producing more publications other than Law Review, develops another focus other than trial ad, and holds more job fairs in other cities, this ranking won't change.
It will get worse.
Also, we all know our career services office has, thus far, been pretty abysmal at getting our soon to be graduates out into the workforce. It's really sad that given our low numbers many of our recent grads continue to find themselves unemployed (in the legal field that is). We should have 100% full employment at graduation with less than 100 grads, but it never happens.
I would also argue that our reported numbers are inflated. I know I did the math for our year and the numbers were off by as much as 10%.
Until Baylor starts holding more CLEs around the state, producing more publications other than Law Review, develops another focus other than trial ad, and holds more job fairs in other cities, this ranking won't change.
It will get worse.
# posted by : 6:32 PM
: 6:32 PM
SMU and UH grads have a larger home market with higher salaries than BLS grads. Starting salary may be an objective measure, but it is not necessarily a measure of grad quality. BLS grads are competing against the home teams in every major legal market in the state and we have a higher percentage of grads going to smaller markets. Our salaries should be lower for those reasons alone.
Anon 3:11, measuring oneself by internal standards only leads to stagnation and decline if your standards are poor. Judging yourself solely by the opinions of others can be a poor guide, too. In fact, given the faddish nature of mass opinion, I would argue that an emphasis on what others think is a guarantee of failure at some point. Since BLS' 1st principle is to train students to represent clients, I think our standard builds in flexibility as well as competence.
The bottom line is that by choosing to be a small, practice-oriented school we have permanently disadvantaged ourselves in terms of U.S. News' rankings. We need to accept that trade-off and avoid "solutions" to our rankings that could endanger the quality of our program, whether other people see it or not. Our clients WILL see the difference.
Anon 3:11, measuring oneself by internal standards only leads to stagnation and decline if your standards are poor. Judging yourself solely by the opinions of others can be a poor guide, too. In fact, given the faddish nature of mass opinion, I would argue that an emphasis on what others think is a guarantee of failure at some point. Since BLS' 1st principle is to train students to represent clients, I think our standard builds in flexibility as well as competence.
The bottom line is that by choosing to be a small, practice-oriented school we have permanently disadvantaged ourselves in terms of U.S. News' rankings. We need to accept that trade-off and avoid "solutions" to our rankings that could endanger the quality of our program, whether other people see it or not. Our clients WILL see the difference.
# posted by : 7:22 PM
: 7:22 PM
Joe I agree with you, there would have to be a trade off if we accepted more students, and more than likely it would be a negative trade off in terms of the education that BU grads receive.
However, I tend to think we should be "doing more with less."
Some of these ideas aren't just ranking "solutions", they would make BU Law better. That in turn would give a higher value to our diplomas and make our clients happier by having highly regarded attorneys working for them.
However, I tend to think we should be "doing more with less."
Some of these ideas aren't just ranking "solutions", they would make BU Law better. That in turn would give a higher value to our diplomas and make our clients happier by having highly regarded attorneys working for them.
# posted by : 9:19 PM
: 9:19 PM
I will only offer my frustration, and not suggested solutions, because frankly I don't know the solution. It irks me to no end to be ranked behind SMU and on the same level as UH. I always took pride in being the second-ranked school in Texas, and we can no longer lay claim to that "distinction." The real frustration is that I KNOW that we are a better school -- for some reason we are not conveying that to the people that compile the rankings. I agree, let's get some more of our studs out there talking to the bar, ie. Osler, Featherston, and Powell (I guess that's a suggested soloution -- oops).
# posted by : 11:07 PM
: 11:07 PM
Anon 10:07--
The problem isn't impressing the bar because we are doing very well in that category. The problem is impressing the professors at other schools. That score is pretty low, and makes up 40% of the total score.
So we need those people talking to professors at other schools.
The problem isn't impressing the bar because we are doing very well in that category. The problem is impressing the professors at other schools. That score is pretty low, and makes up 40% of the total score.
So we need those people talking to professors at other schools.
# posted by : 11:13 PM
: 11:13 PM
I'm kinda frustrated by our rankings, especially since Baylor is the lowest ranked school I got into. But I think this is one of those things where we're just not playing the game. It's not hard to lose a game you're not playing.
While I agree that, from an internal perspective, I received a great education at Baylor Law, and that the school continues to have a great program, it is not okay to eschew the rankings because we are confident that Baylor Law students receive a great education. While it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to have to worry about what others think, this is becoming a necessity. If Baylor does not take steps to improve their rankings, regardless of Baylor's confidence in its own system, it is doing a great disservice to its students. Many firms, including mine, will not even interview at schools that are not in the top tier, and, in my opinion, are becoming even more selective in this regard, showing hesitance to hire outside of the top 20. While Baylor law students may graduate with a great education, if they are unemployable, this won't mean much from a practical standpoint, especially with the increasing amount of student debt most students are forced to accrue.
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# posted by : 10:01 AM
: 10:01 AM << Home
